Who's Meaner: Liberals or Conservatives?
I am many things rolled into one complicated and yummy mess.
Politically, though, I self-identify as a liberal, progressive Democrat.
Democrat thing is easy. I'm registered as a Dem and have worked for them since I was eighteen.
What makes me liberal/progressive? Coupla things. I am:
I am also against affirmative action and for the death penalty. Big fan of Israel, too. These are conservative viewpoints. And, for some, means I am not, in fact, liberal.
I say nonsense. Means I'm a *free-thinking* liberal. Best kind.
My views don't keep me at odds with anyone really. Friends with members of all political parties and persuasions. Told you. I'm a delight. However, I do sometimes get hate mail and nasty comments about such views.
Which leads to a rather startling discovery.
Liberals are way meaner than conservatives. Who knew? And better yet, why? Conservatives who disagree with me are almost always polite. Whether offering me eternal salvation, good talks, or good times, they come across as polite, complimentary and concerned. Some tease and joke about my flower-child ways, but the correspondence and, in some instances, subsequent friendships are positive and enlightening.
Liberals who disagree with me hate my ass. They threaten my job, resort to personal attacks without an ounce of humor, and send nasty-grams that would make Rosie O'Donnell shudder. I may write 400 posts that champion the left-wing, three or four that do not are picked apart and misconstrued.
At any rate, I'm just surprised is all. Why are conservatives so nice when it's clear we disagree on just about everything? Are you hoping I'll come around?
Well, keep hoping. I may disagree with your politics, but I like your hearts and souls. And that's more important anyway.
posted by kate @ 5:55 AM
34 comments
34 Comments:
K -- This is a really fascinating question, in fact. What is the *real* difference or differences between conservatives and liberals. Like you, I'm a sort of free-thinking liberal. I don't particularly adhere to all of the dogmatic labeling that you'd normally associate with a quote-unquote liberal. Furthermore, I reserve the right to change my mind (gasp!). I'm a sentient human being which means I'm allowed to learn things I didn't know before, grow emotionally and spiritually and thus change my thoughts and positions as new information comes to light (why changing your political position has become so taboo in our democracy is an utter mystery to me).
Anyway, I find that the conservatives and registered Republicans that I know personally are pleasant, even delightful people. We can talk about our jobs, sports, the weather -- or even heavier stuff, too -- and pretty much get along fine, even quite well. As a *moderate* former President once said, "The things that unite us are far greater than the things that divide us..." It's when you get macro, so to speak, with the right wing nuttery that it gets ugly. The hateful, vindictive tripe that spouts from the likes of Coulter and Malkin and O'Reilly and Limbaugh and all the haters is nauseating, of course. But they're sort of bigger-picture, they're lumping liberals together under one banner, kind of trying to cage everyone together and generalize, if you get my drift. I think it makes selling their crappy message easier.
Liberals, I notice, are the reverse. The nicest people you'd ever want to know when you look at the national figures, or at least the big picture. Bill Moyers is wildly liberal -- PBS, for crying out loud -- and I'd do anything if he were my next door neighbor. Wouldn't you? Sure, we liberals can be a little shrill, too, sometimes, but I think our message is generally more warm and welcoming.
But get in our face one-on-one, and it can get a little, ahem, gnarly.
This leads me to think that maybe we liberals are somehow a little more personally invested in our views. But surely this can't be. I wonder if you have any conservative readers who will give their two cents....
Ben K.
I'm sorry to hear that some of your own side is treating you this way, it's a real shame.
I have to admit that as a conservative we just don't attack each other when we disagree as you have described the threats you have received. In most of the instances of disagreement I run into with fellow conservatives, it's over social issues where they are much more liberal than am I. They know where I stand and why, I know where they stand and why, and we agree to disagree. That's it, on with the rest of the day.
My observation is this: The liberals who are giving you grief are typically those type who view everything in life through a political lens and if you don't agree with them you aren't "fully enlightened" and/or "pure" or whatever their little catch phrase is for the moment. There's definately those on the conservative side that are like that, although I must admit I've personally noticed it being much, much more prevelant on the left. Also you're stupid if you don't agree with them. Some just come out and say it, others try and be somewhat tactful about it, but in between the lines you can feel the arrogance and condescending attitude dripping from their keyboard. Also if you don't agree with them, somehow that means you're walking in "lockstep" with the enemy, or you've become a victim of propaganda, or some other non-sense. You know, I find I just don't have time for that sort of junk.
I'm sorry, but viewing everything in life through a political lens isn't healthy. Life is more than what a bunch of elected representatives are doing in the State Capitol or Washington DC. Being aware of politics is one thing, letting it rule your life is another.
"Why are conservatives so nice when it's clear we disagree on just about everything?" you ask. I'm new to your blog, I know a lot more about you than you do about me. I'd like to post that it's your big rack and nice ass that causes me to be nice to you in hopes you'll post more pics. That's the main reason, but that's not all there is to it. :)
To answer the question, why shouldn't I be nice? Of what benefit is it for me to talk down to you or nasty to you? Will it cause you to change your position? Will it cause you to be more receptive to my POV? The answer is really quite simple, Kate, no reason to complicate things. Quite frankly I've just got better things in life to do than to go around being mean to people because we don't agree on things. Life's too short for that kinda crap.
And exactly what are you gonna say that's gonna make me that mad? or vice versa? It's just an opinion for heaven's sake. Big F-ing Deal!!
Of course if someone want's to throw stuff at me like.... oh, I dunno ... spelling and grammer erroring in my typing, I might just swipe back. Might. I'm as nice and polite to others on any board as they are towards me.
But otherwise I find reading others viewpoints interesting, and while it generally won't ever cause me to change how I view things, it's still fun.
Hey, if you really wanna have fun, you ought to take some of your favorite hate-mail selections and post them (minus the person's name and e-mail address). Yeah I know, that's a little bit of a vengence streak, but they're the one's who sent them to you. Might as well enjoy it your own way.
This can't be a real question. They're 'that nice' because they are hoping you'll fall for it.
It's amazing to me how you post all this personal crap about students but none of these nasty-grams you say you get. Let's see em. LOL. Just kidding. I don't care but wanted to make clear RIGHT OUT HERE that there is no back and forth between you and I and if anyone threatened your job, Kate; it was YOU. And you know it.
And, NO, I do not consider this pointed at me but since you are rabid enough fan of me that you posty after me all the time .... in what can only be considered the beginnings of internet stalking ---
well, I'll just go ahead and say what I got to say .....
I don't hate you or anyone else. I do hold the highest degree of disgust for anyone who can use decorum and death penalty in the same sentence. As in your comment at sticks that we needed to learn to perform the death penalty with some decorum.
WTF????
End of story.
Yeah, when I was stupider I used to not 'mind' but was still horrified by the death penalty ...
then I educated myself.
Try it.
Oh, and fight your own battles.
For god's sake.
oh and rw?? maybe you should do some more research.
Dude --- EVERYTHING is politics. But I don't expect anyone but the deepest of thinkers to get that.
You all are so good at pretending that it is dems that are only wrapped up in politics. LOL !!!!!
You guys start this crap on your kids before they can walk.
I know my share of ALL TYPES of people, too.
this is such a waste of time.
It's so obvious that you talk to yourself.
I can only make the time to talk to one of you SOMETIMES. Kay?
And probably not too often, at that.
It's good in a way to take the time to point out publicly how many of you so called 'lefty' 'progressive' people are really so full of shit died in the wool republican-ites.
I go to the tampa jewish family center all the time, I KNOW these folks.
kate, i am a Liberal and i dont hate you.
>>oh and rw?? maybe you should blah, blah, blah....<<
OK, let's see. Everything is politics because.... you apparently believe that it is. Uh...... yeah, right. It doesn't work like that, but if it floats your boat then go for it.
And I don't get it because I'm not a "deep thinker." Boy, you really told me. How can I ever go on?
How you want to view me or others is not my concern. You believe whatever makes you feel good about yourself. I don't really care.
Hi Kate,
I've almost posted on the bile between local groups of bloggers on several occasions, but I always come back to one comment made to me by someone - essentially "you really don't want to get involved in this." They were right.
I also agree that we simply have to quit looking at everything through a political lens. The world isn't meant to be liberal/conservative or R/D. It's simply not. Our country wasn't even intended to have political parties, and what's going on now is exactly why. It totally hampers progress. Yes, we've made it that way but bad habits can in fact be broken.
I tend to agree with Chris Rock's commentary regarding any lock-step dittohead:
"Republicans are fucking idiots and Democrats are fucking idiots and conservatives are fucking idiots and liberals are fucking idiots. Pretty much anyone that makes up their mind before they hear the issues is a fool, O.K.?" "Everybody wants to be in a gang. Why don't they just fucking make up their own mind."
I've fought long and hard because of my often mixed views. I see a lot of issues in shades of grey and in relation to a specific context. So I get my teeth kicked in by both sides at times, which really drives me nuts.
I don't fit into this political world, and it gets easier to accept that. I'm part commie, part socialist, part libertine - all in a package that believes in democracy and really loves this country. I've been around, I know the alternatives. So I'll stick to direct interaction with regular people.
I push/explore/offer/raise awareness of my beliefs/ideas/points of view/whatever in the work I do on stage. Sometimes it's political, sometimes it isn't - but it's always dealing with real people and real issues and is to me often more palatable to put in front of people due to the sheer subversiveness of most things represented on stage. I'm a crap writer anyway, I'll play to my strengths.
There are attack-dogs, laying in wait who spend their time looking for regular people to jump on on all sides of the spectrum now. I don't like the shut-down tactics any of them employ - the name calling, bullying etc. It inhibits actual discourse and the possible byproducts that can come from it.
The ideologies may be different but the tactics are usually the same. Who says the left isn't learning? I've heard for a few years now how they need to adopt the tactics of the right, and it seems they are.
A radical lefty, militant vegetarian, separatist feminist, anti-war activist, Greenpeace or PETA member can be as off-their-rocker-nuts as any Christian Conservative agendist. A zealot is a zealot.
A lot of bloggers are just regular people. Schlubs with a vehicle by which to vent, think or soapbox. There are a lot of people out there I read who I disagree with, and those also who I most often see eye to eye with. In any case I really do enjoy reading what different people have to say. I even read Vilmar's crazy ass for a laugh. I don't think I ever agreed with that guy, but he had a write to say what he thought.
A lot of people aren't looking for the people, for the real individuals through the words or opinions - they're looking for something bigger to jump on.
"When you look for the bad in men, expecting to find it, you surely will." - Abraham Lincoln
Ben - Our message is more warm and welcoming. Perhaps we're more tolerant of crazies and so that's why they're drawn to us?
RW - So maybe conservatives are too busy to write nasty comments? I dunno. I'm not going to print the emails I receive because some of these whack jobs will surely revel in the pleasure of it. Of course, you can read the comments yourself right? So you know what I'm dealing with...And I have to ask - how do you know I have a nice ass? As far as I can recall, no pic on this site has ever revealed my tush, so what gives?
Thanks, Stogie.
And David Jenkins, can I please ask how you get your hair such FANTASTIC shades of red? I sat in the audience and was *fascinated*. I know women who would KILL for that head of hair. It's just beautiful! Ahem. Back to the subject - I agree that we should not look through a poltical lens because, if we did, then too many people would be outside our scope. People who deserve to be known and treasured and loved. People who write in (not a lot, I only get a couple a week) or comment either let me know they are liberal ("Don't lump me in with your neocon haters. I voted against Bush twice!") or yell and scream that because of one or two views I don't deserve to wave the proud liberal flag or they go after me and run liberal sites themselves. I guess they're so used to winning elections, they don't need me in their corner, right?
something yuou hadn't thought of - lotsa libs are anti-isreal because they're anti-semitic.
hussey and vox are prob hating on you caus your jewish.
I think it has nothing to do with which side is nice and which isn't. It's about your method or test for niceness. The method here is described as who comments here. It is common in my experience when commenting on right wing sites I try my hardest to be as polite, thorough, and well mannered as I possibly can knowing that I'm about to be assaulted. So I am basically trying to convert a few free thinking conservatives, not give any ammo to the wing-nuts, and present a valid fact filled "opinion". It is no great assumption that righties will do the same when visiting a liberal blog. When I 'm on a liberal blog I tend to let my guard down a bit and give it some flava knowing my fellow libs can handle it.
Sort of like when you go to a guests house you're on your best behavior.
Kate - I'm a natural redhead, so it's already got "something to stick to" when I augment it (which I primarily do now to cover those insidious grey strands).
I bleach out a few highlights on top then add a feria color on top of it about 3-4x a year. Again, since I'm a real redhead I don't have to worry about roots or anything. The highlights just give it more texture. The color I use is an intense copper/orange. Look for colors that are primarily O. I stay away from R because it's too crayon and anything B is a no-no.
Jeez, that sounded awfully metrosexual, eh? So be it ...
>>RW - So maybe conservatives are too busy to write nasty comments?<<
Oh, I made it clear in my post that the right has it's nasties, too.
>>Of course, you can read the comments yourself right? So you know what I'm dealing with...<<
Not sure what you mean. I'm going off what you said you are receiving.
>>And I have to ask - how do you know I have a nice ass? As far as I can recall, no pic on this site has ever revealed my tush, so what gives?<<
You mentioned it in some post you made on your blog. Don't ask me where, I can't remember.
I'm just having fun and goofing around with you, please don't take it any other way. If it bothers you, I'll stop, and it seems like it does. But really it was just innocent messing around.
But back on topic, the response to me from 'anonymous' is a perfect reflection of what I wrote. I write a polite response to you, and someone to whom I'm not even addressing jumps in, claims I "should do some more research" (IOW I'm not "enlightened"), puts on the cloak of arrogance and condescending attitude ("But I don't expect anyone but the deepest of thinkers to get that."), and then proceeds to place me into his/her preconceived box of how conservatives conduct themselves. So to your statement "So you know what I'm dealing with...," yeah, I do. I don't let them bug me, they aren't worth it.
One more thing just for the sake of observation. This comment:
"It's when you get macro, so to speak, with the right wing nuttery that it gets ugly. The hateful, vindictive tripe that spouts from the likes of Coulter and Malkin and O'Reilly and Limbaugh and all the haters is nauseating, of course. But they're sort of bigger-picture, they're lumping liberals together under one banner, kind of trying to cage everyone together and generalize, if you get my drift. I think it makes selling their crappy message easier."
I could take the names and change them to Dowd, Huffington, Olberman and Rhodes, and then change the words "conservative" and "right" to "liberal" and "left", and that statement would be as true to me and other conservtives as it is to Ben and other liberals. Without going into further explanation, it's all a matter of prespective.
I don't expect the divide between left and right to grow any closer anytime soon, but like I said what good is it to be snippy about it here? Why can't I just talk to Kate and she talk back, we respect that we don't always see eye to eye, and then wish each other well? No reason not to whatsoever.
that's the thing with you guys. if you can't drag race, jewish or abortion into it you're not happy.
I'm with david jenkins.
This is really something I choose to disinvolve myself in .... I'll stick to addressing it on my blog as usual and kate, you can go on talking to yourself.
I did NOT hear the same about your ass, by the way.
LOL !!!
But, I always said you were kinda cute so that's not a slur.
the hatin on you cause you're jewish thing is definitely from you. I honestly think that you are more full of shit than any person I have ever met. And you are disingenuous ... a quality which I LOATHE !
Universally.
voxpop
Tiny, as always, has a point.
DJ - Keep doing what you're doing - it obviously works. You're on my Eric Stoltz list, dontchaknow.
RW - Definitely down with your playful attitude. I was kinda hoping maybe I knew you and that was how you were privy to my attributes. Yes, this thread is a perfect illustration of what I'm saying. You are polite and others are not. Thanks for playing! :-)
Why are conservatives so nice when it's clear we disagree on just about everything? Are you hoping I'll come around?
Because liberals are funny, and without you in the world what would we laugh at?
Kate, stop stalking VoxPop!
Umm, your Eric Stoltz list? Is that a good thing?
There's a local guy here, an acquaintance I see out quite a bit who looks dead-on like Eric Stoltz, just younger.
Good God, Kate, I think voxpop might well be proving your point about being tolerant of the crazies. Dang...
Anyway, I thought your *original* point(s) about conservative versus liberal views was a worthy one.
As someone who has spent pretty much their entire professional life in politics, I must say that there's a finer line than we'd think between viewing everything through a "political" lens versus a "civic" lens. I'll cop to the crime: My name is Ben, and I view every single thing through a political lens. It's tragic, I guess, but I'm not 100% sure how comfortable I'd be, at this point, *not* viewing everything through a political (or civic-minded at the least) lens. Am I a bad person? Well, maybe, but probably not because I have an ability to relate everything that I see, read or touch with some sort of local or national public policy effort.
And Kate, I'll tell you, if I were still involved in running (Democratic) political campaigns, I'd want you on board, opposing viewpoints or not. Frankly, what Democrat wouldn't?
Point is, I sense a little cynicism, Kate, in your comment -- it's a little early in the season for that, don't you think?
>>RW - Definitely down with your playful attitude. I was kinda hoping maybe I knew you and that was how you were privy to my attributes.
So that means I can still talk about your nice ass? Cool!!
:)
Money determines on which side of the fence one grazes. Those wealthy from birth must be Republicans it's a law. A conservative is Republicanese for, "I'll think for you." Children whose parents are wealthy climb over to the Republican side of the fence. Anyone who says, "I'm a self-made millionaire is also Republican—another law. All of the people who star on infomercials are Republicans—not a law, just common sense.
Most artists, actors, and singers/musicians are Democrats even if they are wealthy. The exceptions are the ones who are dicks like Ted Nugent. Most workers are Democrats unless they have reached middle management and they need to kiss the boss' ass, then they convert to Republican.
The schism shrinks between the two as more people become wealthy. Eventually, the two parties will essentially merge and a new "other" party will be born.
Republicans own the major media outlets, though some Democrats are reporters who are afraid to reveal that fact to the owners.
Republicans are secretly greedy and Democrats are not afraid to advertise their greed. Republicans will plunge the knife in one's back during a cordial embrace. A Democrat will attempt to stick a knife in one's back but will usually miss.
Republicans wear bow ties more often than Democrats who are freer to show chest hair. Republicans invented Khakis but Democrats will say they did.
Personally, I am a Redempublocrat. I am for the death penalty except in those cases in which I am not. I am for a woman's right to choose until she chooses something with which I disagree. I am pro abortion and believe Roe v. Wade should be overturned. I believe everyone should have a gun but ammunition should be outlawed.
I have not made up my mind yet who is meaner.
"A radical lefty, militant vegetarian, separatist feminist, anti-war activist, Greenpeace or PETA member can be as off-their-rocker-nuts as any Christian Conservative agendist. A zealot is a zealot."
I couldn't agree with you more Dave!
Thank you, Rachel. Your equal opportunity blogger defense SHINES, man.
Oh, and I MIGHT ADD. I'm bringin the life to the party. Wasn't jack shit goin on around here til I popped by. LOL !!
I'm seriously outta here, though. I really can't watch people talk to themselves and then think of them going in front of a classroom.
Lovely to get to know you girls and ummmm rw's a little better.
LOL !!
OH whoever said I was a nut?? Ben. Nice to meet you, dude.
I'll come check out YOUR brand of nuttiness when I get a chance.... LOL !!
I was born with a nice ass and have no intention of ever doing a thing to change that. LOL !!
Mr. C - You have been dead to me for months. Nice to see you're still an ass.
Rachel - But she's so *hot* in a...Kathy Bates from Misery kinda way.
Ben - Somewhere inside me is a cynical viewpoint or two, but for the most part I am an idealist. And yes, most mainstream Dems have been nothing but happy to have me. I shouldn't let a few bad apples...
Funny...I work with a few (quite a few actually) conservatives who, during the course of the day, are perfectly amibable. But, the minute politics comes up, they become extremely rude and unnecessarily loud and just downright obnoxious.
y tu? I'm crushed. I've been missing our lovely blogger battles.
I've noticed your posts over the last few months have been much more activist related encouraging people to get out do something, attend a party, go to a rally, attend a fund raiser blah blah blah. None of which I'm interested in.
And the commenter's on your site have become much more left wing, much more sycophantic, much more, well, like you said, the people who disagree with you are vitriolic and the ones who agree with you are mind numbing.
I've been keeping up with the surgery and the parent teacher conferences. I'm glad to know you are feeling better, but the surgery didn't interest me and reading about a teacher who believes the public school system is the only answer tell a parent that they need to be more responsible is the height of hypocrisy. I want to say I agree with you on this parent teacher issue but I know the only reason you are having this spat is because you're a teaching dominatrix. Nobody can tell you anything about your classroom or your students. You hate this woman because she won't tell you she's an idiot and beg you for help.
I also noticed you dropped the link to PEER Review FL, so you know, I only drop in occasionally.
C- Not once did I say, "Where you been and why?" Not once did I ask for a critique of all you find distasteful. However, since you started it...
I wouldn't say the ones who agree with me are mindnumbing. In fact, I pointed out that conservatives who comment or contact me are thought provoking and polite. Most of them anyway.
I never said *anything* is the answer alone and the public school system is certainly no exception. I'm no dominatrix. I encourage debate and free thought, encouraging my kids to think not just believe. In a conservative, slightly redneck area, I'd be out on my ass if I believed it was my way or the highway. I simply want parents to do their job. Makes mine easier and produces better kids who benefit from a team behind them.
Dropped PR because G ignores me, H came by to say goodbye because he hates me now and you were MIA. I'd drop in and nothing, nothing appealed to me or no one there seems open to a discussion.
David -- Great description of your views. A lot of it fits me, except that I'm apathetic, apolitical and proud of it. I refuse to align myself with either party because I agree and disagree with various points of both sides. The venom I've seen expressed from both sides has squelched any interest I might have had in politics. I just don't have the energy for a "fight" just for the sake of fighting.
Tiny -- Good point about the judging method and being on one's best behavior at a guest's house. I'm less guarded when I'm commenting on a site that I frequent, or that's written and/or visited by people I know.
Kate -- Interesting post. You excel at sparking dialogue, that's for sure. My guess would be that perhaps the conservatives who disagree with you so politely have read your blog and know that your mind is made up on certain things, so why expend the energy to try to persuade you? Maybe the liberals who argue and criticize so vehemently feel that since you're already "on their side" all you need is a well-argued push to come around their viewpoint?
Of course that's just a guess and a huge generalization. I don't know and can't say I care too terribly much. It's fun to read, though. (I try to read a wide variety of viewpoints, whether I agree with them or not.)
Or...this just occurred to me...it could be the old Southern expression of "you can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar," so maybe the conservatives are being extra polite so they can sweet-talk you over to their point of view. Or maybe it's a conspiracy...
Your blog is so much more fun than the work I'm supposed to be doing!
katie ya spin just like a republican.
that's very apparent to me and to others.
Lib/Dems have had to endure a GOP stranglehold on Washington for some time now; even with a new Dem Congress there's still Bush and Iraq, more than enough to make someone cranky.
Con/Reps have been sitting pretty for a while; but evoke a time when they weren't sitting pretty by mentioning the name Bill Clinton and I guarantee you the niceness disappears faster than Tom Tancredo from a Taco Bell. I can get the in-laws worked up like that every time.
Kate your views don't bother me even though I don't agree with all of them. I don't want you to be me, be yourself. That sounds pretty simple, but it seems at times certain people try to over complicate things when it is not necessary. Hey we agree on beer and music and that's a start to any dialogue.
Awwww, Kate, I've not been ignoring you, I promise. If I were there I'd give you a big hug right now, one that is mindful of your continuing recovery and soreness. See how gentle and I caring I am? All for you, Kate, all for you.
Hugs and kisses,
Mr. G
this is that site that everyone in progressive land is laughing about where the lady talks to herself and pretends it's other people. this is rich.
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